Posted: March 11, 2011 Post subject: Carbon SCatter andall about it "proximinialy" spea
Hi there !
( Sorry for my English , sorry for all tipos ; i dont reaaly have time to revise all said here, and anyway no one pays me anyway for this ... )
But as i have a little time and i had been working everyday with carbon Scatter the latest 3 months here on our OPEN SOURCE Fantasy Production project .... ...
Well i can Say ...
As far as our Studio experience with carbon Scatter.
You would need both / even if you own Vue 9 Xstream / because Vue 9 Xstream Doesn't handle the Extreme Large Polycounts amount of That Carbon Scatter tru the native application Directly With proxys Does.
Just for a comparative chart.
- Yu Can load a Single tree / or any object model with with 1.000.000 poly count.
- First thing that will happen is that vue extreme 9 will take nearly 15 minutes freezes into calculation just for that single object import.
- Now you can try to scatter that same single 1.000.000 object in vue tru a whoole Valey lets say.
- And what will happen is that to calculate that enormous amount of data vue will get first trying to build into computer available ram all that ecosystem geometry info into the scene ...
- And here we tryied that with a 16 gb ram mac pro workstation.
- And what happens is that - all the full 16 gb ram will be occupied by that 1.000.000 single object scattered tru a whoole landscape....
- And i'm sure that if you have 32 gb or even more . That kind of Out of the Range calculations will block your Ram Even with latest vue xstreme 9.
And that is how vue calculations are done into vue 9 ecosystems.
They are made on the available RAM .
- When vue Reaches the Ram limit lets say those 16gb ram all all occupied.
- Then after like half hour to just calculate that kind of massive ecosistem of 1 objects with 1.000.000 polys ... reaching the RAM limit - VUE it blocks - And will start another process.
That is Dumping all that Information From The RAm - Into your Computer in two ways
- First migrating all RAM VOLUMINOUS DATA into Windows / Page file, and that means like more 15 minus just doing that ...
- Then Slowly WIll start to make Temporary files at your C/users/Temp ...
And will start reading And writing block by block all that data
WHat means that Suddenly when your RAM is reached. Vue Starts to get slow to block then suddenly reaching 90% of your ram used instead of having a 3 hours render , you will have a 30 hours render .
And that is the usual what happens with VUE If you dont have like a INDUSTRIAL WORKSTATION TO WORK WITH Like 350 gb Ram You will never be able to Make that kind of Scattering a whole landscape with objects of 3.000.000 Polys ....
Now you would ask :
Why do i want to scatter a whole Landscape with like 20 4.000.000 Polygons Objects ?
YEs in movies business like Avatar / the legend of Guardians ....
Yes they needed that ...
So they all have that Amazing 300gb worsktations ram to work with .
And yes they did that in the pass.... And that was "the past" of e-on Software Technology reality.
Because of that Need Especially For Movie Like productions.
E-on Decided to Get into code another More Robust and more professional Code for Scattering with All Studios Applications power .
Well Most of Studios they use - MAYA / CINEMA4D / 3DSMAX Application as their Main Application , Their main Work is there / Because they are for all power Robust Movie tested And stressed top Its Maximun ....
In movie production.
Is there were they Put Those high Polygons objects 10.000.000 polys In the Foregrounds.... And basically would use Vue Extreme for Backgrounds Work. But they would always had to get a solution to Scatter the tipe of Ecosystem Geometry to get Near the Camera and well they had to Match move all that And work alot with Separated "environment" render passes Were Because Vue geometry Would not be ever that High for Near Shots .
But STill there is Nothing like and alike Vue Ecosistem and its Unique Parametric Graph distribution Node technology.
So E-ON TECHNOLOGY Teams Decided To Solve all that Puzles Their Biguest Clients always had ... Like Industrial Light & Magic & others That need more than what vue Sometimes can Handles.
And believe me VUE 9 XSTREAM HANDLES ALOT
You can Effectively Scatter Whoole Planets into Whoole Infinite Planes Especially with Dynamic Camera Triming.
But Vue Software Architecture puts And PUSH always your HARDWARE to its limits .... VUE 9 EXTREAM is made for BIG COMPANIES like INDUSTRIAL LIGHT And movie Companies that Do have the BOXX Workstation with 300gb ram system - And there yes they can do whatever .
But even there when they want to reach Further like CAMEROn Wanted is diferent. They Have to get Better and smarther Solutions. And that means Smarter codes and work flows . That Go Beyond Hardware possibility's.
AND CARBON SCATTER ANSWERS THAT.
Based on Vue Patented technology and all its bells and wisles
( And this is just the start Carbon scatter just launched beta right now today ... yu cant even imagine what is going on there like " Visual Point cloud ecosystems" and others wonders ...)
CARBON SCATTER USES A SMARTER WILD LARGE RANGE INDUSTRY USED TECHNIQUE .
That is PROXY Meshes That are just requested by the Ram per Buked .
Inside those "proxyt boxes" That are stored weren't you save them in your dist / or automatically in a temp file .
Inside those PROXY Stored in Disc And not on Ram Files There can be Whatever polycount "You can Store there whatever no polygon limits"
Then The Rendering program on Render time Calls them Each Proxy "per buket" Loads / use it / And Unloads it after usage . Making That Way Massive Optimizations to the Ram usage.
And that way Getting Virtualy near of unlimited amount of geometry that you can load and render into a scene.
And that kind of Technology there is Starting to get popular the latest years so its adopted by main Renderes as Final render / MENTAL RAY / VRAY , And on Main Pakages / 3DS MAX / CINEMA 4D / MAYA / Even External renders Like Pixar renderman / Arnold
Well All they Have the Proxy System Implemented somehow Right now Available to be used. Again Mostly fro cinematic productions is largely used.
Now If It is already on VRAY / MENTAL RAY / And if we have vue extream ?
We can use them and we don't need CarboN Scatter Right ?
Well BAsicaly 3dsmax Got a "instance" Object Painter / but its nor the Same thing .... One thing is the "RENDER PROXYS" Another thing are the Software "Instances" System ...
SO basically to use for Scattering Possibilities With a Renderer proxy System Usually you would hav eto buy a Secondary code program from thirdparty scripters and code developers ...
And there are some good / BUT ALL THEY GO BEYOND THE 200$ 300$
One of the bests because it does a "volumetric scattering"
That is another tipe of Algorithm that goes even beyond proxys technology - In HD instance All everything there is converted from "polys" into "Volumes" and rendered in Volumetric data in render time ...
Its like for example "Vue extreme 9 clouds" They are volumes not geometry so you can Zoom in "procedural as if fractal was and there is no limit for the "volumetric amount of data" ... And that maybe be the future of SCATTERING - Volumes along POINT CLOUD
Well that is teh Future ... Like Unlimited detail Something that just few in the woole world can dream about ....
There are already some samples of it of code that develops the fully unlimited volumetric point cloud unlimited 3d data Modeling Manipulating Display & rendering as yu can see here.
( AND WE REALY HOPE e_ON SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS BUY THAT SDK AND APLY IN A NEAR FUTURE E-ON TECHNOLOGIES SOMEHOW !!
But you see TODAY at year "2012" PRoxys are And will be STILL The best way To Scatter Massive Quantities of Geometry.
Because they are :
- Easy LOW RAM USAGE.
- EASY Modeling / Use polygons / The base of all 3d right now .
- Not have to Add the extra Effort and time to convert Polygons into Point clouds / And Point Clouds into Volumes ...
- So are DAM FAST
So CArbon SCATTER PRIMES INTO !
GIve that Joint Possibility .
Of the Full Award Winning / Production Proven FULL Interface of VUE XSTREAM.
With the outstanding PROXY Technology.
Technology that is so overboard used into productions and therefore evoluting that much / as today the latest year we can even Already Display proxys in Realtime WITH POINT CLOUD TECNOLOGY in View ports ....
So PROXY Technology Beside Revolutionary is WIDE used and Along the Present into the future ...
Ok now all that manbo Jambo ... Movies Big productions / The future ...
That Sound like TRON too much And just a game Biggest Companies play and need isnt ...
Well then actually there is the thing.
E-ON SOFTWARE Vue Coders Are taking their already usual Communitarian User end step To all they do .
So they are delivering this Technology "That doesn't need "biggest hardwares" Into the Hands of USERS .
BY the price of
* Carbon Scatter Single (SRP: $195) can be used with one of the compatible applications installed on your system (choice of the host application is done upon order). It will work with all compatible renderers for the selected host application (e.g. mental ray and V-Ray for 3ds Max).
* Carbon Scatter Multi (SRP: $295) can be used with all compatible applications and renderers installed on your system.
* Carbon Scatter Multi-CE (SRP: $395) includes over 100 SolidGrowthCS plants and can be used with all compatible applications and renderers installed on your system.
SO From 195 to 395.
And more as the promotion
Until April 11, 2011, owners of Vue 6 to Vue 9 Infinite and xStream can save $200 on Carbon Scatter and get Carbon Scatter Multi-CE for $195 only!
So ok 200 to 300 is also the price of other tools that do the same . That Scatter proxys.
And yes there are other Tools .
But they are not even compared to VUE ECOSISTEMS / AND GRAPH SYSTEMS That DRIVE it ...
There are other tools But they also are Just for 1 application.
You Get those tools in 3DS MAX / You get Those Thirdparty TOOLS in CINEMA4D / you Get those Proxy Tools in LIGHWAVE.
But then There you go - You CANT migrate as example HDINSTANCE Workflow and software From 3DSMAX to CINEMA4D or MAYA ...
Were in that CARBON SCATTER PRIMES in to be a BUNDLE That CAN WORK THE SAME WAY YOU WORK IN VUE AND THE SAME WAY YOU CAN WORK WITH THE SAME SOFTWARE ON ALL THOSE APLICATIONS ....
Ok Lets say that you dont want to waste the "190$" bucks to have Carbon Scatter Multi-CE ...
Because yu have already VUE XSTREAM and yu can Scatter those more low polys ( yu dont need that many high polys or whatever a 500.000 poly object vue gets xstream stuck but still you handle it and yu can scatter on Vue things that can that way in Vue Xstream integrate with other applications ...
Right but lets talk also about . RENDER QUALITY.
CARBON SCATTER WAS MADE THINKED TO HELP STUDIOS MAKE BIG APROXES TO MILLION POLYS IN A INFINITE WAY ....
But Also to give them with Native Renderers Lightning workflow The MOST RENDER QUALITY.
Yu can Successfully activate in VRAY / MENTAL RAY / AnD Others Render algorithms like BRUTEFORÇE / and that MEANS UNBIASED NEar Hiper REalistic Renders THAT YU CAN APLY ON CARBON SCATTER ECOSISTEMS.
That yu cant ever do that on vue cause yu make a Approx and as vue is made for LARGE LANDSCAPING .... Not UNBIASED MICRO DETAIL.
Your SHadows on Vue ECOSISTEMS will SUCK.
Your lightning Will be Always inferior Quality.
Thing That Doesn't happen WIth CARBON SCATTER.
You Can get out of CARBON SCATTER FULL RENDER QUALITY FOR FULL UNLIMITED ECOSISTEMS .
A thing that yu cant Even compare is a close up VUE Render and a VRAY / MENTAL RAY Hiper Realistic render if you need it
- VUE lightning / VRAY & MENTAL RAY Lightning
YOUR RENDERER OF CHOISE / AND YOUR SKILS IN IT - WITH CARBON SCATTER IS THE LIMIT.
Were no matter your Skills COmparing VUE Will always limit You in HARDWARE And also RESULTS.
CARBON SCATTER CAN FREE YOURSELF FROM THOSE LIMITS.
And thats what carbon scatter is all about ...
Well Excuse me for the all dRAFTY tecnical points / in such bad English ...
I'm not E-ON Software Staff ...
mAIBE THE GUYS WILL TELL YA SOMETHING MORE COHERENTLY SHORT !
But this is what i know about it.
Hope is usefull somehow!
RPGSI STUDIO ADMIN
PS: ABOUT ME ...
I'm Just another user as You ...
ACTUALLY A CARBON SCATTER INTENSIVE OPEN BETA USER ...
And i was the guy that Needed so much because i didnt had money to buy it ....
Well i do this of 3D graphics in partime i have a in BAnkrupt Studio ... in coimbra Portugal . But I still Work in Trying to Maintaining my Studio just for surviving in a litle publisher ...
SO BELIEVE ME DUDE ! IF I HAD those 200 or 300 or 400 to Waste ....
I would reaaly buy the 295 one That yu can use in multiple Software ... CARBON SCATTER EDITION.
And of course as a BUYER i would piss off literally every week E-ON SOFTWARE TEAM to Release MORE FEATURES in CARBON SCATTER ....
And i would be a terrific BUGGUER hunter ...
CAuse this Software GOT Alot of bugs ...
At least in the last BETA .
I think all Must been IRONED For their confidence into the Commercial release .
CARBON SCATTER IS ALL GOODS.
But Even if i had the money i think i would not Buy it Unless CARBON SCATTER TEAM puts Some more FEATURES LIKE POINT CLOUDS DISPLAY AND INDIVIDUAL MANIPULATION OF INSTANCES IN POINT CLOUD MODE ...
That Because is still a litle bit difficult with CUBES and BILBOARDS even to see in the scene WHATS REALY IN THERE... yu know .
Yu Still have to do alot GUESS WORK When Painting The ECOSSISTEM .
Comparing to POINT CLOUDS DISPLAY .
Yu see there are always THIRDPARTY Scripted solutions that Are aplied to each software . And some are reaaly very good as that one.
BUT. There you go.
All they are based on Recoded Software script language & plugins .
They are not Completely THIRD PARTY Software Codes. Like VUE XSTREAM is And OZONE and CArbon Scatter is ...
And of course as that they canot Migrate from Application to Application .
Much less be as much robust and Independent from wasted Software resources as carbon Scatter is ...
And yu Can see that Comparing the Working SPEEDS on Those Other plugins Comparing to CARBON SCATTER ....
There is nothing like VUE XSTREAM ECOSISTEMS To drive Whole Huge Landscapes in Minutes all covered .... as fast and as easy to just brush in . WIth REal Ecosistem Nested Fractal Tree editors as vue ecosistem and its materials and functions system all available full in CARBON SCATTERING
And thats all whys and all there is About Carbon SCatter and why one should buy it
- Near VUE xSTREAM or OTHER PRODUCT .
Hope it was useful and not "too much " brain melting my "little review"
Have fun bro ....
I Hope You Have those 200 or 300 to waste in this amazing application.
Cause as example in my case / i reaaly wish i had / but i dont.
But i'm still waiting for the CARBON SCATTER CINeMA4D & LIGHTWAVE BETA TEST .... that will get the next weeks.
Whoo know if i get crazy and win the program on those ...
I doubt "cause i'm too much radical and alternative person for that " but hey !
* But i had the time to write in all this i had struck in my trough today *
and GOOD LUCK !
Hey sorry for the tipos / and testament ....
E-on software staff Carbon Scatter 2
Joined: May 29, 2008 Posts: 143
Posted: March 17, 2011 Post subject:
Carbon Scatter allows you to instantiate native objects or to create populations on them, which you can't do with xStream. And it uses a single renderer (VRay or Mental Ray), not 2 like in xStream, which enables a better integration of populations.
Posted: May 12, 2011 Post subject: Stability of Carbon Scatter
first of all -what a truly fantastic post!!! (or rant? )
We have in the past unsuccessfully tried using View xStream v 6 & 7 with 3dsMax & Mental Ray. Much too unstable and crashing constantly.
My question to you is this;
Were you using carbon Scatter in 3ds Max with vRay or Mental Ray?
Did you find it to be stable and reliable software producing good and consistent results?